PIF Question

[ashleyshea]

Over in the Members forums there is a thread titled Missing In Action. Members have been posting about people they haven't heard from -- sometimes in connection with just missing talking to someone, sometimes in connection with a lost LMAO or a PIF or Exchange not followed up on. Of all these reasons to ask about someone's whereabouts, I'm finding that most often people are looking for non-Nervousness members (just forum members) who promised a PIF and didn't follow through.

I haven't participated with PIFs except for one person who didn't follow through and isn't a member, so I can't leave her negative feedback.

How do you all feel about how the PIFs are working? Is it rare for someone NOT to follow through? Does there appear to be an influx of new people who are NOT following through? Does there need to be a thread to report people are aren't following through?

I don't want to put restrictions on PIFs that aren't needed. I'm just asking the questions. :P
What would you Professional PIFers like to see? :)

Shari

[sarahkate]

I haven't been involved in TOO many PIFs so I am probably not offering the best point of view, but I will say that most of the people I have dealt with have seemed to follow through. Though, it seems like most of the people I have dealt with in the PIF threads are usually full N'ness members anyway. I have noticed lots of newbies signing up and getting involved in the PIF threads right away, I'm not sure how many of them actually follow through, but I have to assume there are quite a few who sign up on the forums, then agree to send a few PIFs and then drop off the face of the earth.

Maybe people who are owed a PIF by a newbie who doesn't seem to be following through, should keep an eye on the nominations thread. If they see someone nominated who hasn't followed through on their PIF obligations then it would probably be a good idea to contact Penny so she can hold back on sending out their code until they have sent the PIFs they owe.

[Penster]

Maybe people who are owed a PIF by a newbie who doesn't seem to be following through, should keep an eye on the nominations thread. If they see someone nominated who hasn't followed through on their PIF obligations then it would probably be a good idea to contact Penny so she can hold back on sending out their code until they have sent the PIFs they owe.

I totally agree. Like we said before, it's up to the members to let us know when this is happening, so we can take the steps to lessen it's occurrence .

[Alpaca]

I play it safe and only take a PIF from someone that I know and trust (or that my spider-senses tell me I can trust).

[gwensmom]

I am glad you asked this because I had been wondering about it too.

I have been burned twice and one of those was on a pif. The person followed through on some of her other commitments and became a member before I realized I had been shafted. I left that person appropriate feedback.

The other incident was a pre newbie who signed up and started a christmas ornament swap. I sent my ornament and never got anything back. My pm's have not been answered, the person is nowhere to be found and there is no way to leave feedback. Should I have notified the directors about this person? I didn't because I wasn't sure if there was anything to be done about it.

It has occurred to me that perhaps pre-members should not be eligible to participate in pifs or to start threads that require others to send first. But that would leave them very little that they could do to prove their reliablilty.

I will be interested to see what others say because there does seem to be a problem with deadbeat piffers.

[Anastasia576]

Originally posted by Alpaca@Mar 25 2004, 04:42 PM
I play it safe and only take a PIF from someone that I know and trust (or that my spider-senses tell me I can trust).
I agree Alpaca,
I usually only take a PIF from someone who I see participates a lot and whom other members seem to trust.

I would like to say, however, when I was a pre-member, I participated in the PIF threads a lot. I'm glad that people gave me a chance.


...and there is a thread called "PIF collection agency" isn't that where you report things that are owed to you?

[potat1556]

Hey guys!
I became a member about a week ago and before that, I have particpated a lot in the PIF threads, and thanks to my commitmenst and keeping in time with them, many of the full members were very happy with me to nominate me and second me too..thanks to them
But I would also like to add, thoguh I do keep a track of my pifs and exchanges on the Keepign track, Pif collections Agency, too, I have still got soem stuff which some full members owe me...so I find it wasnt the newbies like me who have shafted me, but some full members...thoguh I understand they may have their hands full..but then isnt that what keeping track is about,...that you dont take on more than you can handle.
I hope I havent offended anyone and that I am not on the U.O.me list of anyone who isnt mentioned on my tracks...pls check and bump me if i owe u soemthing...thanks for letting me be here...i love it!!!!!!

[Rebecca]

I rarely play on the pif threads. I like them, but I don't like being burned. I have had 3 people not send me what they promised and all three were members.

One person kept responding to my inquiries and said she was sending it, but nothing ever arrived. Another person disappeared and then came back and sent me a pm that she wanted to send me my pif and could I tell her what it was. I couldn't remember what the item was and suggested that she look through her posts. She never sent anything and I haven't seen her around for awhile. The other person was banned.

But on the bright side, I have had at least 6 people honor their pifs. I did leave negative feedback for the two people who are not banned. It's a little irritating to see people still being active when they owe you stuff.

[dunglas]

I've been burned on PIFs much more often than anything else. Though most people do follow through.

It's just too easy to forget about the PIFs you owe and are owed. It would be great if the site could automatically help out here.

I took a quick look at phpbbhacks.com, and there is a "forum bot" available. Looks like it could be set to auto-respond to everyone who posts in a particular forum, so a PM could automatically be sent to people who post in a PIF thread.

There's also a To-Do List hack, but I can't find any documentation or reviews.

[Alpaca]

Originally posted by dunglas@Mar 26 2004, 05:54 AM
It's just too easy to forget about the PIFs you owe and are owed. It would be great if the site could automatically help out here.
It's an idea but people really should learn to be responsible for themselves and figure out their own ways of keeping track. I wouldn't encourage anyone to rely on something automatized to remind them of their duties. Or put another way, I wouldn't want to risk an exchange with anyone who can't make an effort to keep their stuff straight. What does it cost to make a note whenever someone takes your PIF?

[Rebecca]

I agree with Alpaca. There's no excuse for people not being responsible for themselves. I have no problem writing down who I owe things to and getting them in the mail on time.

[dunglas]

If more online tools will help other people meet deadlines etc, then those online tools improve my Nervous experience whether or not I use them myself.

[ashleyshea]

Thank you all for your comments. I'm not sure how to address some of the problems, but it is nice to know about them.

Dunglas, I'm not sure that an auto-respond would help deadbeats. I took one PIF from a person I was afraid would be a deadbeat. I immediately PM'd her to give her my address because my address isn't on my page. I never received the PIF. That is only one experience, and maybe something auto would help others, but I have a feeling that those who are going to follow through do so fairly immediately. It doesn't seem to matter how many reminders the non-follow-throughers receive, as some people who posted here mentioned reminding people of their PIFs and still never getting them.

Eventually, I'd like a page for PIFs on the site, just as we have a page for LMAOs. But that won't happen for a while.

I don't know that we want to keep non-members out of PIFs since it is one way they can prove themselves. But, on the other hand, a PIF isn't like an LMAO. There's no deadline for a PIF, no creative expectation, no responsibility other than sending a single item (usually not hand made) that you are interested in getting rid of. So, PIFs really aren't a good way for pre-newbies to show that they will follow through with LMAOs. We could close off the PIF threads to members only so that feedback could always be left and questions about following through would be archived in the Q&A area. I'm not saying we should do this...just throwing it out as a possibility. I don't know bad the deadbeat situation is....and, even if it is bad, if this would be a good answer.

About the Collection Agency thread, I thought that thread was for people to post what they need to send...sort of like the Keeping Track thread. We could have another thread for reporting missing PIFs. I think the only good this would do would be to let others know who not to take PIFs from. I don't think it will help in getting someone to send out a PIF.

Just some thoughts...

Shari

[potat1556]

I totally agree Shari and though on the whole I have had good experiences on the PIF..there are still some who have not sent my stuff till now..as you all must have noticed, I am the first to update my keeping track thread as soon as I owe soemone somethign or am owed somethign from the pifs...i love playing pifs..and i think other people who play there should learn to become more responsible without any other tools..there are a lot of tools already, people just need to use them efficiently!
my two bits...:)

[chaosisorder]

I've had five flakeouts in the last two months for PIF, PIF twist and PIF burned CDs. Of those, one was a newbie that I think has just bailed, two are newbies turned recently members (one who owed me two things) and one member.
One of the newbie-turned-members owed three people the same thing and I notice through the question and threads that she has told the other two people the item must have been lost in the mail. I bet if I ask, I'll get the same response. Funny how the same item magically can't make it through the post. Harumph :)

I find my biggest flake outs are the member exchanges. I've had prolly 10 things never get to me after my end was sent out and 5 things where I waited to send until something arrived and nothing did.

I was pondering starting a thread of "oweds" - whether they are overdue or not, and whether they are PIF or not. Just a 'hey, gentle reminder I'm waiting on this items' thread. I think it would give other members a way to see if a person is flaking often or has an abundance of things due to other people. On the main pages, you can see a list of heads and projects to let you ID a potential flake, but with forums PIFs and main page exchanges, it's trickier.

Side note- I knwo this will take programming, I'll just add it to the wishlist :) If on the main pages, there was a way for each party to mark an exchange as complete, I'd find it helpful to me (one more way to make sure people got something and to declutter my page) and also a way to see if people have loads of outstanding exchanges.

[thunderstorm_19]

having not read the replies, only the main post...

- i don't think many PIFers cop out. there are only a few i haven't received.

- yes it's much more likely that it's forum-only-members (pre-newbies) that haven't followed thru on PIFs, but you know, forum-object participation (including piffing) is what we're currently using as a judgement of whether people should get full membership or not, and if they don't follow thru on PIFs and stuff here then they shouldn't.... losing out on PIFs to dishonest people is just part of the process.

read some of the replies, and here are a few selected comments:

- There's no deadline for a PIF,

well not 'officially' no, but i think it was generally accepted that PIFs could generally be sent within a week, or no more than two weeks, after being claimed. and it seems to be that this is what most people do, automatically.

If it has been longer than it 'should be' and i haven't rec'd from someone, i just PM and ask, 'can u remember what day it was mailed?'... and that just reminds them, if it hasn't been mailed.

it would be cool to have some way of keeping more concrete track of the PIFs so they are less easily forgotten, but i don't think the PIF-jipping problem is overly rampant...

About the Collection Agency thread, I thought that thread was for people to post what they need to send...

yah it is... many people, including me, also keep notes on that thread of what we are owed, and edit the posts when things are received ...

i guess one thing to do with pre-newbies who fulfill some things and flake on others, is to add not only the good comments, but the flaked comments also, to the nominations thread...

[Penster]

yes it's much more likely that it's forum-only-members (pre-newbies) that haven't followed thru on PIFs, but you know, forum-object participation (including piffing) is what we're currently using as a judgement of whether people should get full membership or not, and if they don't follow thru on PIFs and stuff here then they shouldn't.... losing out on PIFs to dishonest people is just part of the process.

As a point of interest, perhaps, nominations are not accepted for PIFS or RAOKs because of the reasons listed by Shari.

There's no deadline for a PIF, no creative expectation, no responsibility other than sending a single item (usually not hand made) that you are interested in getting rid of.

Penny

[cdonley]

As a point of interest, perhaps, nominations are not accepted for PIFS or RAOKs because of the reasons listed by Shari.

There's no deadline for a PIF, no creative expectation, no responsibility other than sending a single item (usually not hand made) that you are interested in getting rid of.


I agree with that. When you are PIF-ing - you choose what you are sending out and when. It is nothing like a real LMAO - I don't think PIFs should count for membership.

I also think it should run like the never ending RAOK - people don't sign up to be in a new round if they haven't mailed off their obligation yet...

Side note- I knwo this will take programming, I'll just add it to the wishlist If on the main pages, there was a way for each party to mark an exchange as complete, I'd find it helpful to me (one more way to make sure people got something and to declutter my page) and also a way to see if people have loads of outstanding exchanges.

Ooooh yeah! When you both approved it - it would be cool if the exchange number and what the actual exchange is would pop up onto your main page. Then when it is complete, you could hide it like a regular object. ^_^

[dunglas]

I forgot to say, most of the people who have flaked on PIFs they owed me were in fact established members. My experience here may not be typical.

As a point of interest, perhaps, nominations are not accepted for PIFS or RAOKs because of the reasons listed by Shari.

Gee, I didn't even know that. How long has that been the case?

[ibiddy_boo]

Aaack....my hampster has one foot off the wheel today. Can't seem to get my wording right, so i'll just say this.....dunglas, you're not the only one who was burned by established members. My pm's were either not responded to, or were, but the people still flaked.

Newbies or established members, people are people, and some good, others not quite so good. That's just the way it goes. i used to be intimidated to report an established member who didn't play fair, or leave appropriate fb (whatever the case may be), but i now realize that all that does is possibly promote that person's bad habits and allow someone else to get stung.

To add something positive.....my personal experiences have been far more positive than negative. The majority of nessers rock!

:)
cindy

[Rebecca]

If it has been longer than it 'should be' and i haven't rec'd from someone, i just PM and ask, 'can u remember what day it was mailed?'... and that just reminds them, if it hasn't been mailed.

I do the same thing and sometimes I have to send several pms before the object reaches my mailbox. But I don't think I should have to do that and it takes the fun out of it when I have to keep requesting that someone send me something that they owe me.

QUOTE
As a point of interest, perhaps, nominations are not accepted for PIFS or RAOKs because of the reasons listed by Shari.

There's no deadline for a PIF, no creative expectation, no responsibility other than sending a single item (usually not hand made) that you are interested in getting rid of.




I agree with that. When you are PIF-ing - you choose what you are sending out and when. It is nothing like a real LMAO - I don't think PIFs should count for membership.

This isn't always true. the several things that I have gotten from the art object pif thread have had a lot of work put into them and are wonderful. It's not the same as just sending something that one has laying around. One was this totally adorable finger puppet that Yardenxanthe crocheted for me, one was a very cool altered t-shirt by sugaree -- I sent her the t-shirt and she altered it and sent it back. And one was a painting by silvertiger that she painted for me after I claimed it. All those people were already members, but if they hadn't been, I think a nomination would have been in order.

[cdonley]

art object pif thread

My post was about the plain ole PIF thread ^_^

[yardenxanthe]

I have been stiffed on two items by a member of the BoD, so I guess everyone is a possible candidate for flakiness.

I haven't really kept track of who owes me stuff for several months, so I'm not really sure who owes me what anymore or how long it's been. I kind of cooled off on the PIF threads back when I took inventory of what I hadn't received yet.

Mostly, I'm not in it for what I can get, and I decided that if something never makes it to me, it's not that big of a deal to me. I like the PIF experience, though. It's fun.

In addition, through the PIF threads, I have interacted with some members who I otherwise might not have, and have had some really great experiences.

It's kind of a toss up. I shy away from people who haven't proven themselves yet, though. Or if someone I claimed from has not sent me something yet, I don't claim anything from them a second time.

[ibiddy_boo]

In addition, through the PIF threads, I have interacted with some members who I otherwise might not have, and have had some really great experiences.


That's so true for me too! :)

[Rebecca]

How do you all feel about how the PIFs are working? Is it rare for someone NOT to follow through? Does there appear to be an influx of new people who are NOT following through? Does there need to be a thread to report people are aren't following through?

I don't want to put restrictions on PIFs that aren't needed. I'm just asking the questions.
What would you Professional PIFers like to see?

sorry, I forgot to answer these questions. I don't think that anything needs to be done. If people are willing to take a chance they will and if not, then they will set up trades and exchanges with people they trust. I've been stiffed, but I don't feel like I need any protection.

Although, I kinda like the idea of being able to post on a thread of people who did not follow through on pifs -- kinda a beware thread.

[frogstar]

I'm one of the offending members that chaosisorder mentioned, and I just want to post here so that chaosisorder, and anyone else who might be waiting for things from me, knows that I do not at all intend to "stiff" people in exchanges. On my list of priorities, pifs are way at the bottom, and I've decided not to become involved in them for at least a little while so that I can get the more important things out of the way. It's only the burnt cd pifs I tend to have a problem with; I find it difficult to get around to doing them, because the cd burner is on my husband's pc.

That said, a friendly reminder is always very helpful if you think someone is not going to follow through on an exchange. Chaosisorder sent me a reminder earlier and I will be sending those things out tomorrow. After that I'll be all caught up and we can both breathe sighs of relief. ;)

[chaosisorder]

Actually Frogstar, you weren't- I only consider it flaked *after* I've sent two reminders and it's been a few months :) Late is fine- we're all late sometimes! I think reminders are a great way to go- I never feel stiffed if I haven't sent a reminder because nobody remembers everything. And if I send a reminder and get ignored, then it becomes pretty clear.